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Newsgroups Discussion on Left Lane Vigilantes

 

Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:50:53 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Left Lane Vigilantes

I've been sort of keeping up on this 'Decline of the American Society' thing or whatever it is that in on the subject of left lane hogs. So I'm gonna stick in my 2 cents worth, if it's worth even that...

The way I see it, I have no right to speed, but you have no right to try and stop me. You aren't a law enforcement officer...if you were, you'd be doing 90 and I wouldn't be catching up to you in the first place. It is only when people jam up the left lane that driving conditions get dangerous. People are going to want to go fast, there's no way around it, and when you get in the way on purpose, YOU are the cause of whatever may happen. Why are you in the left lane in the first place? Were you passing someone that was going slower than the speed limit? Doubtful. Was it because you were passing someone going the speed limit or above? This means YOU ALSO are speeding. I don't care if it is 5 over or 25 over, it is still considered speeding. The only other option is that you are there because you're an idiot who likes starting things.

The way I drive is this: If I come up on someone in the passing lane who actually is passing someone, no matter how slowly, I give them the time to do it. Once past the car being passed, if I have enough room to safely get my car in front of the car that you just passed, it's time for you to get over, and this is when I either start flashing to pass or hugging your bumper or whatever I'm in the mood to do at the time. 'Whatever' includes the possibility of passing you on the right with an absolute minimum of distance between any part of my car and any part of yours.

If you are one to slam on brakes for the sole reason of making the person tailgating you run into you, I have a hard time believing that a traffic court judge would find the person behind at fault, simply because you slammed on the brakes for the SOLE PURPOSE of making the person behind you hit you.

There's where I stand. Bring it on.
Nate


Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:17:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

Nate wrote:

  You know, I really should keep my mouth shut and my fingers still... but...
> The way I see it, I have no right to speed, but you have no right to try
> and stop me. You aren't a law enforcement officer...if you were, you'd be
> doing 90 and I wouldn't be catching up to you in the first place.

Agreed.

> only when people jam up the left lane that driving conditions get
> dangerous. People are going to want to go fast, there's no way around it,
> and when you get in the way on purpose, YOU are the cause of whatever may
> happen. Why are you in the left lane in the first place?

Agreed.

> The way I drive is this: If I come up on someone in the passing lane who
> actually is passing someone, no matter how slowly, I give them the time to
> do it.

Thank you. People like me who try to stay to the right but sometimes pass when traffic in front of us starts going really slow (people who can't get above 40 shouldn't drive on limited access highways where the limit is 55-70) thank you. Give us time to pass, if it's clear we are passing.

> Once past the car being passed, if I have enough room to safely
> get my car in front of the car that you just passed,

Ok, here's where I have a little tiny problem. How much room is enough? I generally wait until I'm a full car length ahead of the car that I passed before moving over. For some speedsters, that's too much and they dash into the right lane just as I hit my blinker and start my lane change.

> it's time for you to
> get over, and this is when I either start flashing to pass or hugging your
> bumper or whatever I'm in the mood to do at the time. 'Whatever' includes
> the possibility of passing you on the right with an absolute minimum of
> distance between any part of my car and any part of yours.

Like I said, how much room are you giving? If you think that you can "safely" pull in front of somebody with a foot to spare, you'll start harassing me because I'm a bit more cautious than you. If you give me at least a car length before you start your anger tactics, then you probably won't be disappointed. Incidentally, flashing your lights (on if they are off, off if they are on) even if I can't get over will let me know that you want to pass. I'll get over as soon as I can. I don't consider that sort of flashing to be rude, unless you keep doing it when I can't get over.

> If you are one to slam on brakes for the sole reason of making the person   tailgating you run into you, I have a hard time believing that a traffic   court judge would find the person behind at fault, simply because you   slammed on the brakes for the SOLE PURPOSE of making the person behind you   hit you.

If you tailgate, you deserve a wrecked car. However, I won't brake for a tailgater unless I'm in the farthest right lane, and already going slow to let/make the idiot pass, so you're probably safe.

Incidentally, traffic judges don't know the situation, so "The traffic in front of me was braking" or "There was debris in the road" can often get the braker off. I don't exactly like those tactics (it's lying, after all), but don't assume you are safe if you're tailgating and the driver in front intentionally brakes.


Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:31:47 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes
On Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:50:53 -0500,

"Nate" Wrote:

> I've been sort of keeping up on this 'Decline of the American Society'   thing or whatever it is that in on the subject of left lane hogs. So I'm   gonna stick in my 2 cents worth, if it's worth even that...

> > The way I see it, I have no right to speed, but you have no right to try   and stop me. You aren't a law enforcement officer...if you were, you'd be   doing 90 and I wouldn't be catching up to you in the first place. It is   only when people jam up the left lane that driving conditions get   dangerous. People are going to want to go fast, there's no way around it,   and when you get in the way on purpose, YOU are the cause of whatever may   happen. Why are you in the left lane in the first place? Were you   passing someone that was going slower than the speed limit? Doubtful.   Was it because you were passing someone going the speed limit or above?   This means YOU ALSO are speeding. I don't care if it is 5 over or 25   over, it is still considered speeding. The only other option is that you  are there because you're an idiot who likes starting things.

> > The way I drive is this: If I come up on someone in the passing lane who  actually is passing someone, no matter how slowly, I give them the time to  do it. Once past the car being passed, if I have enough room to safely  get my car in front of the car that you just passed, it's time for you to  get over, and this is when I either start flashing to pass or hugging your  bumper or whatever I'm in the mood to do at the time. 'Whatever' includes  the possibility of passing you on the right with an absolute minimum of  distance between any part of my car and any part of yours.

> > If you are one to slam on brakes for the sole reason of making the person  tailgating you run into you, I have a hard time believing that a traffic  court judge would find the person behind at fault, simply because you  slammed on the brakes for the SOLE PURPOSE of making the person behind you  hit you.

> > There's where I stand. Bring it on.

Nate,

It doesn't much matter why the person in front of you slammed on the brakes. If you ass-end someone, you're at fault no matter what. It doesn't make any difference why that person slammed them on. The fact that you ass-ended someone means that you did not have control of your car.... IE: you're at fault.

By the way... I am one of those people that love to hit the brakes when people like you are on my bumper. Beep your horn and flash your lights. I don't have a problem with that. Ride my bumper and that becomes a different story.

-Ray-


Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:11:30 -0700
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

LG wrote:.

[snip].

> > The way I drive is this: If I come up on someone in the passing lane who   actually is passing someone, no matter how slowly, I give them the time to   do it..

> > Thank you. People like me who try to stay to the right but sometimes  pass when traffic in front of us starts going really slow (people who  can't get above 40 shouldn't drive on limited access highways where the  limit is 55-70) thank you. Give us time to pass, if it's clear we are  passing..

I have no problem with people like you trying to pass slower vehicles on the right lane, if you get over after you're done, that is..

> Like I said, how much room are you giving? If you think that you can  "safely" pull in front of somebody with a foot to spare, you'll start  harassing me because I'm a bit more cautious than you. If you give me  at least a car length before you start your anger tactics, then you  probably won't be disappointed..

Often it's way the hell more than 2 cars length and the damn car still will NOT move over..

> Incidently, flashing your lights (on if they are off, off if they are  on) even if I can't get over will let me know that you want to pass.  I'll get over as soon as I can. I don't consider that sort of flashing  to be rude, unless you keep doing it when I can't get over..

I don't do that, that is stupid and accomplishes NOTHING. But most of the time it's because the guy just would NOT get the f*ck over eventho the lane is clear. "Damn that speeding maniac." Yeah and you are a cop? NHTSA and the DMV did a GREAT JOB brainwashing stupid masses re "speed kills." Sign, if only NMA is half as good at re-brainwashing "speed doesn't kill, stupidity kills.".

> > If you are one to slam on brakes for the sole reason of making the person   tailgating you run into you, I have a hard time believing that a traffic   court judge would find the person behind at fault, simply because you   slammed on the brakes for the SOLE PURPOSE of making the person behind you   hit you..

Nah, unfortunately, the rear ender is always at fault as opposed to the rear ended. It sucks, but that's the law..

> If you tailgate, you deserve a wrecked car. However, I won't brake for  a tailgater unless I'm in the farthest right lane, and already going  slow to let/make the idiot pass, so you're probably safe..

I don't sniff butt, but I get close enough for them to get somewhat uneasy, which is the point of tailgating. Sniffing butt often times WILL get you in a situation that you can't get out off... And really, people who hog the left lane even when there's no cars in the next lane, no cars in front of them deserve to be tailgated or BFG'ed. But if you DARE flashing them, thou shall get the mighty brake lights. Why? My car goes from 60 to 0 in 110feet. The only two other cars sold in the U.S. with shorter braking distance (less than 5 feet better) are Porsche 911 Turbo S and Toyota Supra TT. But then, there are a couple of times when cars behind me with good following distance HAD to use the shoulder cuz their brakes just couldn't stop their cars on time. Eventho I saw the impending dead stop and used my flasher... Maybe if they can view driving as something other than a chore they might actually be able to drive semi-intelligently..

> Incidentally, traffic judges don't know the situation, so "The traffic in  front of me was braking" or "There was debris in the road" can often get  the braker off. I don't exactly like those tactics (it's lying, after  all), but don't assume you are safe if you're tailgating and the driver  in front intentionally brakes..

And believe me, people WILL lie if they know that they can get away with it..

Andy.


Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:49:52 -0700
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

Raymond DV wrote:

> Nate,

> > It doesn't much matter why the person in front of you slammed on the  brakes. If you ass-end someone, you're at fault no matter what. It  doesn't make any difference why that person slammed them on. The fact  that you ass-ended someone means that you did not have control of your  car.... IE: you're at fault.

 > By the way... I am one of those people that love to hit the brakes when  people like you are on my bumper. Beep your horn and flash your lights.  I don't have a problem with that. Ride my bumper and that becomes a  different story.

> > -Ray-

If someone is behind you (in the left lane) and TAILGATING, you are exactly what this thread is about. The fast lane is for PASSING. Try being a "Left Lane Vigilante" in some areas, and you'll wind up dead, shot or run off the road.

Chuck


Date: 29 Aug 1997 20:53:04 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

LG wrote:

> >Ok, here's where I have a little tiny problem. How much room is enough? I generally wait until I'm a full car length ahead of the car that I passed before moving over. For some speedsters, that's too much and they dash into the right lane just as I hit my blinker and start my lane change.

You shouldn't wait till you're changing lanes before you signal.

The signal should go on the very instant you know you're going to make a lane change, before you even check your blind spot, etc.


Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 06:41:31 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

LG wrote:

>Ok, here's where I have a little tiny problem. How much room is enough? I generally wait until I'm a full car length ahead of the car that I passed before moving over. For some speedsters, that's too much and they dash into the right lane just as I hit my blinker and start my lane change.

I've had this happen too.. I usually complete a pass within 30 seconds, and don't even pull into the passing lane unless it's clear ahead and behind.

Sometimes, someone will change into the passing land behind me,, following closely. Since I wait until I can see both headlights of the passed vehicle before pulling to the right, that leaves time for the impatient ones to try and pass me on the right, just as I'm about to move right. One thing I do to minimize this possibility is to start signalling the lane change before I'm a car length ahead of the passed vehicle. This lets the driver behind me know that I intend to move out of his way, and he usually waits for me to do so, rather than try to move into the space to my right, where I just "said" I'm about to move to..

To reply, please remove one letter from each side of Spammers are Scammers, avoid them!


Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:33:53 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

(left lane antics snipped, I agree thoroughly)

> > If you are one to slam on brakes for the sole reason of making the person  tailgaiting you run into you, I have a hard time believing that a traffic  court judge would find the person behind at fault, simply because you  slammed on the brakes for the SOLE PURPOSE of making the person behind you  hit you.

> > Nate B.

In NY state (and many others) if you hit a car from behind, for any reason, (whether they braked on purpose or not) YOU are at fault. I believe you are subject to either a tailgating ticket or a ticket for failure to yield the right of way. (The car in front of you technically has the right of way no matter what speed they are doing) You are responsible for keeping the proper distance ans slowing down so as not to hit the other car. Saying that the other person purposely braked to cause an accident holds water like a wiffle ball. The judge will promptly hand you the damages.

If I am approaching a vehicle in the left lane and they are passing another vehicle, I get within 2 car lengths of their rear. far enough to react, close enough to let them know I want to pass THEM. If they hang in the left lane after passing, I usually flash twice quickly. If this doesn't work I either pass on the right (using turn signal) or wait until they wake up and move over. If they are just sitting there in the left lane with no other cars around I flash from about 500 ft back. If they haven't started moving over by the time I'm with 6 car lengths, I pass on the right. If they start moving over early, I give them a thumbs up. If they wait until just before I move right (effectively blocking me) they get a thumbs down and a virtual smack.

If you are stupid enough to not notice a car approaching you at a closing speed of 25+ mph, then you really shouldn't be on the road. If you are the sole vehicle around and in the left lane, I should NOT have to lift my foot from the throttle (or worse, have to brake) before you move over.

the absolute WORST left lane offenders are the f*cking minivan drivers. They have this huge vehicle that gives them incredible visibility, but they never look in the rear view mirror. They also seem to be immune to radar or something. I see delivery minivans go right thru speed traps at 30+ mph without Roscoe P. Coltrane even noticing. But he will immediately hammer a Camaro for 10 over.

Sorry it was such a long rant...

Cab

'95 GLX (The noisy one)


Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:18:10 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

Some of what "Nate B." wrote:

>Why are you in the left lane in the first place? Were you passing someone that was going slower than the speed limit? Doubtful. Was it because you were passing someone going the speed limit or above? This means YOU ALSO are speeding. I don't care if it is 5 over or 25 over, it is still considered speeding. The only other option is that you are there because you're an idiot who likes starting things.

There's a great potential for paranoia there:

"Everyone's out to impede me!"

>get over, and this is when I either start flashing to pass or hugging your bumper or whatever I'm in the mood to do at the time. 'Whatever' includes the possibility of passing you on the right with an absolute minimum of distance between any part of my car and any part of yours.

If something goes wrong there, how do you defend yourself against a charge of careless driving or unsafe lane change? Excuses such as "The guy was in the wrong lane" might work in a bar room, but they won't work in a courtroom. The "dumbest idiot" driver can hire the smartest attorney to sue you.

>If you are one to slam on brakes for the sole reason of making the person tailgating you run into you, I have a hard time believing that a traffic court judge would find the person behind at fault, simply because you slammed on the brakes for the SOLE PURPOSE of making the person behind you hit you.

Paranoia again. True "malicious braking" collisions are actually rare, and one needs witnesses to prove malice in court. If you're the driver behind and you don't have them, the system is going to be stacked ten times against you. Excuses such as "The guy slowed down for no reason" might work in a bar room, but they won't work in a courtroom. Many people learn this the hard way. OTOH ordinary evasive braking is quite common and every judge and juror knows it.

99% of all driving is trivial. The 1% of driving that is not trivial consists of: Emergency driving, getting out of the way of emergency vehicles, and of course, actual collisions. Those who try to practice "just-in-time" driving combined with poor citizenship are responsible for most of the problems.


Date: 31 Aug 1997 02:47:26 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

CT quotes and replies:

< >Nate B. wrote:

> >> Once past the car being passed, if I have enough room to safely  get my car in front of the car that you just passed,

> >Ok, here's where I have a little tiny problem. How much room is enough? I generally wait until I'm a full car length ahead of the car that I passed before moving over. For some speedsters, that's too much and they dash into the right lane just as I hit my blinker and start my lane change.

When that happens to me, I cancel my turn signal and stay in the left lane. As soon as the speedster is past, I restart the signal and make the lane change. IMHO, there's no point in habitually making marginal lane changes, just to avoid the occasional over- anxious speedster.-- Chuck

I agree. Let the bastard go and see to it that he does it safely. If you pull in too quickly, you are making the person in the right lane an "involuntary tail-gater". He's driving along, minding his own business, driving the speed limit (i.e. 65 mph), and you pass him and pull in front of him but allow only two car lengths (32 feet) between your rear and his front bumper. At 65 mph he is going to travel that 32 feet in .33 seconds. If you pull in front of him and jump on your brakes (emergency type stop), he is gonna eat your rear end, no ifs ands or buts (no pun intended!)! By pulling in front of him too soon, you are endangering him and yourself.

Bottom line: Let the impatient fool pass you on the right, check your right mirror and when safe, pull into the right lane. Never tailgate and never cause someone else to be an involuntary tailgater. Never impede. Never escalate.


Date: 30 Aug 1997 12:50:55 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

>Thank you. People like me who try to stay to the right but sometimes pass when traffic in front of us starts going really slow (people who can't get above 40 shouldn't drive on limited access highways where the limit is 55-70) thank you. Give us time to pass, if it's clear we are passing.

Oh, would that be so, would that be so. Mebbe it is more than I realize, since I don't necessarily know what speed the folks were going who are well-behaved when I'm passing. It's the guys and gals hanging on my bumper when I am passing, and/or getting impatient when I don't move over so quickly so as to endanger myself and the car I just passed which are the problem. If the original poster really does wait until the passed car shows up in his rearview to indicate it's time to move over, I commend him.


Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:09:05 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

AC wrote:

> LG wrote:

> > Like I said, how much room are you giving? If you think that you can   "safely" pull in front of somebody with a foot to spare, you'll start   harassing me because I'm a bit more cautious than you. If you give me   at least a car length before you start your anger tactics, then you   probably won't be disappointed.

> > Often it's way the hell more than 2 cars length and the damn car still  will NOT move over.

In that case, harass away! I don't do that, so I have no problem with you getting annoyed at lane huggers who do. I'll start signaling my move after I've cleared the other car. Any more I tend to signal when my back bumper is even with the passed car's front. Still, give it a car length or two before you get annoyed...

> > If you tailgate, you deserve a wrecked car. However, I won't brake for   a tailgater unless I'm in the farthest right lane, and already going >  slow to let/make the idiot pass, so you're probably safe.

> > I don't sniff butt, but I get close enough for them to get somewhat  uneasy, which is the point of tailgating. Sniffing butt often times WILL  get you in a situation that you can't get out off... And really, people  who hog the left lane even when there's no cars in the next lane, no  cars in front of them deserve to be tailgated or BFG'ed.

Like I said, I'll only use drastic tactics when I'm in the slow lane. If you tailgate me in the left lane, I'm doing something wrong. If you tailgate me in the right lane, you're an asshole.
-Laura Gjovaag


Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:41:10 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, RD wrote:

> brakes. If you ass-end someone, you're at fault no matter what. It > doesn't make any difference why that person slammed them on. The fact  that you ass-ended someone means that you did not have control of your  car.... IE: you're at fault.

> Is everyone trying to tell me that if an HONEST cop sat there and watched someone hit the brakes with the sole intention of making the following car run into them, it would still be the followers fault? Admittedly, without a witness, the follower would be fried, but I just gotta wonder.
Nate B.


Date: 1 Sep 1997 00:37:33 +0300
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

>It doesn't much matter why the person in front of you slammed on the brakes. If you ass-end someone, you're at fault no matter what. It doesn't make any difference why that person slammed them on. The fact that you ass-ended someone means that you did not have control of your car.... IE: you're at fault.

Not quite 'no matter what' (slamming the brakes right after changing lane etc.; acting unpredictably), but in a situation like this, most likely.

>By the way... I am one of those people that love to hit the brakes when people like you are on my bumper. Beep your horn and flash your lights. I don't have a problem with that. Ride my bumper and that becomes a different story.

Two can play this ramming game. As soon as you've hit the car in front of you release your brakes and swerve. The car ahead of you will probably go sideways and either hit the center divider or the traffic in other lanes, chances are it'll roll over as well. Fast thinking is required and this is the kind of stunt one might pull on track when a slower car ahead of you refuses to let you pass no matter what, spinning it out will get you disqualified but do that a couple of times and get a reputation as someone others don't want to block ;-)

(This is an ugly trick, _DON'T_ do it even if someone slams his brakes on you...)
-Henri
CAUTION: Before engaging mouth make sure that the brain is in gear.


Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 15:40:12 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Left Lane Vigilantes

>Nate, >By the way... I am one of those people that love to hit the brakes when people like you are on my bumper. Beep your horn and flash your lights. I don't have a problem with that. Ride my bumper and that becomes a different story. -Ray-

Somewhere in another thread, I read that in St. Louis sometime ago, (no official news reports) that doing this caused a woman in a small car to skid off the roadway, killing her instantly, so this action can prove deadly. I can imagine the look on someone's face after reading that someone was killed as the result of them slamming on their brakes, or even a gun in their face. I will admit this: On cars/trucks with bumper stickers that read "if you can read this, then your too close", or my favorite "if you tailgate, I'll flick a booger at your windshield", I try to stay as far as possible from them.

Once while driving, a group of teenagers driving a small car was dangerously close to my bumper, I couldn't go anywhere because I was in the right lane, and was getting ready to make a right turn. As I backed off from the vehicle in front to make a safer distance, the light turned red, I then gently slowed to a stop. The teenage driver then had to lock his brakes, after doing so he began throwing his arms around, fists clenched, and cursing aloud while his four other teenage passengers exploded with laughter. I to found this to be quite amusing, (seeing that the passengers were laughing so hard) but tried with great difficulty not to laugh at what just happen as he could see the wild smirk on my face through the rear view mirror.
Erik.

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